Overeem: Ranked on potential?
October 28, 2010 at 3:04 pm #100719
PW, Comment #28
“How does Valentijn’s winning percentage affect Alistair in any way? Now? Way to go if you wanted to show you totally missed my point.”
You addressed Subo, but I got this one.
Your post stated several things:
I agree with this statement
“even with the bump in skill level lately, the HW division is by FAR the worst weight division in MMA”
True, there are BIG gaps in skill level. You go on to praise Overeem skill set. Size, athleticism, ability to take punishment….there are few that have his full skill set. I agree with that.
“He’s almost top 10 by default for fuck’s sake”
Here is where you fall apart. You don’t get ranked by “default”. This attitude hurts promotions.
You go on to praise the merits of Team Golden Glory. I agree that this is justified. Golden Glory is a great camp. Top 10 in Europe. You go on to use a .500 fighter as an example of this great camp?!?!?!?! Subo jumped on that for good reason. If I were praising Big Nog’s camp I would not use a .500 fight to highlight the greatness.
“At the moment I’m not even sure if I want to see him compete in MMA. I find K-1 a hell of lot more entertaining and the skill level is higher.”
Your opinion, cool. I have addressed this in several posts already. When you are the HW Champ of the “2nd” biggest MMA promotion, you need to step up and fight, or vacate that belt. I would love to see a shit load of fights with all the Strikeforce HW’s. Unfortunately we have a champ that won’t settle in mma for and given amount of time, and Fedor/M-1 BS.October 28, 2010 at 4:24 pm #100720
In my opinion, a top ten list is based on who i think would win fights against anyone underneath him. In other words, “who is the better fighter”. I disagree with lists that have a certain fighter ranked high, but the actual list maker would bet on someone lower to beat them. It comes down to “who i would put my money on to win”.
There is no way in hell i would bet on werdum to beat 3/4′s of the current “top 10″. I find it difficult to take seriously anyone that has him as ranked number 1.
I dont actually need to see Overeem beat Frank Mir into a bloody pulp to rank him higher than Mir. You take into acount both of their previous performances, and make a subjective decision. It’s not just wins and loses taken into acount, but actual performance’s in those wins and loses.
That fact remains, I would bet on Overeem to beat roughly half of anyone’s “top 10″ list, with some of the others too close to call. Hence, he is top ten.
I guess there is two types of lists. One based solely on the ‘W’ ‘s in the column, and the other based around who you would bet on to win. I don’t like the win’s method, as i feel i would lose alot of money that way.
I feel that it’s those 2 ways of making a top ten list is what causes the most heated discussion on forums. At the end of the day, it’s all subjective, but the OP obviously makes his list based on the wins column.October 28, 2010 at 4:38 pm #100721
Basing rankings on actual results of fights that have actually happened is the only way to do it. It’s how every ranking system known to man works, and it’s like that for a reason.October 28, 2010 at 5:41 pm #100724
That’s the beauty of the MMA business model. THEY MAKE WHATEVER FUCKING FIGHTS THEY WANT. Sometimes it’s based on perceived rankings, sometimes on a string of victories leading you to the belt, sometimes based on what’s marketable.
I agree w/Dennis Hoppa……”top 10″ lists are subjective. If you only base them on actual wins, YOU END UP W/BOXING!!! And nobody wants that. It’s impossible to only use wins as every fighter can’t fight every other fighter @ the same point in each other’s career. Therefore Mamoru’s theory is illogical.October 28, 2010 at 5:55 pm #100729
Grass Hoppa comment #31
“……, but the OP obviously makes his list based on the wins column.”
Ty for reading the post.
TY 1000 times for not posting using points that are covered in my nut hugger disclaimer.
Your are correct. I do base my rankings on results. My concern with ranking stems from the media. If you look at NHL/NBA/MLB/NBA/Boxing/Sumo/Judo/nascar/tennis/golf rankings they are based on results. In most of the major sports, it is results within a time frame.
MLB for example (using due to being near the end of the season). We know who were the two best teams in the pre season. We know who were the best in the post season. We know who hit the best. We know who pitched the best. All based on their equivalent to “W’s in the column”.
These rankings have very real effect on fighters. A top ranked fighter can have his management team use that leverage when negotiating contracts with both promotions, and sponsors. I think the “based around who you would bet on to win” over inflates the value of a fighter, and is unfair to people bumped off the list.
The prime example of management using this tactic is Fedor/M1. When they started courting North American Promotions it was the fact that he was #1 on all the MMA media sites that allowed him to get the contract he wanted. I have zero problem with this, as long as you have earned that ranking. (regardless of my thoughts on Fedor’s record he did earn the ranking).
I respect the UFC for not buying into this tactic, and keeping control of their product.
I bet Mr. Coker is questioning why he did. After 1 fight he had to go into renegotiation’s with M1. Under contract he was unwilling to fight on the Shield/Hendo CBS card. Now he has one fight left, and there are reports of M1 directly negotiating with Showtime.
When it is “Joe Blow’s MMA site”, rankings don’t count for shit. When it ESPN/TSN/AOL/YAHOO/SI.COM/USA TODAY, it can make a big difference on how the fighter is viewed to the average person.
The Strikeforce HW champ will have defended his belt once in 3 years!!
(11/16/07…. so 3 years in 19 days as of post). Think of how butt hurt people get when the UFC ties up ANY title for +/- 9 months. Even when it makes perfect sense to allow a division a chance to sort out some new contenders.October 28, 2010 at 6:34 pm #100732
Frickshun, Comment #33
You make some good points, but I think that Zuffa has found a very effective way to avoid the “YOU END UP W/BOXING” problem.
Middle Weight with A. Silva is the perfect example:
- There is a ranking order in the UFC that takes into account wins, and performance.
- A good streak can get you a shot like Cote.
- There are several fighters that can be thrown into #1 contender fights at a moments notice, like Okami, or Marquardt.
- As new guys get signed the get thrown into the mix, like Belfort.
- Injuries/suspensions can move you up faster (Belfort).
- When there are no clear #1 contender, we get the LHW fights, or if we are lucky the GSP fight.
In Zuffa mma, W’s, and Performance BOTH matter. Just ask Jon Fitch*.
Overeem Does not have the W’s or the performances against top 25 ranked HW’s to justify his ranking.
*I like Fitch. I never miss his fights. They may not be barn burners, but I always want to see if someone can stop his game.October 28, 2010 at 6:39 pm #100735
Should this me moved to the ‘never ending’ threads?October 28, 2010 at 6:53 pm #100736
“You go on to use a .500 fighter as an example of this great camp?!?!?!?! Subo jumped on that for good reason. If I were praising Big Nog’s camp I would not use a .500 fight to highlight the greatness”
Alistair’s brother was mentioned to show how he grew up with MMA – NOT as example of a top fighter from Golden Glory. So you missed the point as well. I guess I should have made a new paragraph there to make it easier to spot the different stories, because apparently it’s easier for you to just assume I am an idiot instead of keeping two thoughts in the head at the same time.October 28, 2010 at 6:55 pm #100737
lol. I have maybe one, or two post left in me for this topic…well unless someone comes back with a a strong argument for Overeem’s HW ranking.October 28, 2010 at 7:49 pm #100756
P W, Comment #37
I didn’t get the “Grew up with Combat sports” point. Sorry.
I didn’t assume your an idiot. I did, and still do think Valentijn is a bad example compared to the accomplishments of someone like Semmy for the point your making about Team Golden Glory. As I said before Golden Glory is a great camp. I would even go so far as to say it is one of the best camps in Europe, and Asia combined. Lack of amateur wrestling programs in Europe hurt them sadly.
Now that is clarified the Valentijn point makes A LOT more sense. Not having older brother myself it may be a little hard top relate. I know how much I looked up to a couple of my cousins, and how I mirrored their interests. Having a older family member as a role model can do wonders to garnering interest in anything.
This shouldn’t have anything to do with rankings though. If relationships can effect rankings, then Ryan Couture could be looked at as a top lightweight based on his Father, and the access to training that most of us would sell our left nut for.
Ryan Couture CAN be looked at as a top lightweight PROSPECT based on relationships, and access to training. His performances will tell the story in the years to come.
Overeem can be looked at as one of the best untested heavy weights in mma. At 30 he’s in his prime.October 28, 2010 at 7:58 pm #100759
Just a couple of things pewnt:
The sports you list there (at least the ones i know, i’m aussie), and in fact most other sports out there, they play ALL the opposite teams or players at least a few times in a year, or play several big tournemants a year, where they play all the top level competition.
As mma stands, this is impossible to do. Realisticly, top level fighters get 2 top level fights a year (occassionally 3). And they can’t fight the best in other organizations. And then you also run into difficulties where people start bringing up this “oh he only beat him cos he was past his prime” bullshit. Because of this, i 100% believe that some level of extrapolation of fighters performances needs to be taken into account when making rankings. Not just pure wins and losses. The problem is no one ever agrees on how much to extrapolate.
If you were to show the Cro Cop/Mir fight to someone, and say, “Mir is a top 10 HW fighter” (maybe only top 20 but whatever), they would think that perhaps you had smoked that wacky tobaccy too much. It was a shitty performance. The “win” really doesn’t count for much. He was fighting at best a middle of the pack HW and looked pretty shitty doing it. Hence, a little “extrapolation” is needed.
The way i make my rankings may inflate the value of some fighters, i agree.
However, I disagree that is disadvantages other fighters. If they want that top 10 spot, it is no good turning out a crappy win. Impress us. Earn your spot. Show us how good you are. If you do that, you wont lose anything, or be disadvantaged. As shields showed, you can score a win and not impress anybody doing it. Thats not how to become a top ten guy, or rather, its a really, really, really, long way to go about it. (because you would literally need to fight everyone on the list above you to crawl up it)
My rankings will always reflect who i ‘believe’ to be a better fighter, which takes alot more liberties than your system. Not better or worse, just different. I will say this though:
If the heavywieght division had more depth to it, we would not be having this conversation about Overeem. If there were more skilled guys in the division, who fight 3 times a year, we would have alot more information to go off and wouldn’t need to look so hard for people to fill out the top ten!
Honestly, once i start getting to around 8 or 9, i really start scratching my head wondering if these guys even deserve to be listed (maybe once upon a time, but right now?).
An ideal top ten list to me should be this: Any one of the guys listed has a chance to wear the belt fighting any other listed guy. That just isn’t the case in the HW div at the moment, hence people looking so hard and ‘extrapolating’ on fighters that in a busier division wouldn’t get a second thought simply based on the fact they don’t fight enough.
On that note, I honestly think Overeem hasn’t had an oppenant for so long mostly because SF couldn’t find anyone out there really worthy enough outside the UFC.
That said, the HW division is what it is. And Overeem is on my listOctober 28, 2010 at 8:09 pm #100761
Here’s a good point Pewnt:
RANKINGS ARE FUCKING USELESS. Almost as useless as this thread.
Congratulations for making a post stating the fucking obvious, and then going on to be a fucking retard. So, i hope you feel good riding your high horse because you have the be all and end all of heavyweight rankings. CongratulationsOctober 28, 2010 at 8:14 pm #100762
HYHYPT–>when I finally see you, remind me how badly you need a hug.October 28, 2010 at 8:41 pm #100767
I’ll take a cyber hug.October 28, 2010 at 8:49 pm #100770
Grass Hoppa Comment #40
Very well said! Good reply.
MLB – Major League Baseball
NBA – National Basketball Association
NHL – National Hockey League
Nascar – Stock Car Racing or look at how fast I can drive in a circle
Rest are easy….
I will be more than happy to agree to disagree with our different opinions on how MMA should be ranked. You choose to extrapolate based on your opinions. Judging by your posts you have educated opinion. I choose to judge by results, level of competition they have faced, then performance.
You make a good argument with your Mir/Cro cop example. I say that same argument can be applied to Rogers after his Warpath fight.
For my rankings.
Beat any two (mma rules) to get into 6-10 spots. Better destroy them though:
Shane Del Rosario
Brett Rogers – One down, one to go
Beat any one to get top 5. If he destroys them top 3 no questions asked!
Having a Mir/Crocop style performance may only get 5-7 depending on who it is.
All listed fighters currently/recently contracted with Strikeforce.
He had a good LHW record, but going 1-5 in his last 5 fights speaks for it self. Buentello, can of Lee, ’08 Cro Cop, Goodridge, Sylvester, Thompson, Fujita, and Rogers, just don’t say top level fighter.
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