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“Lay and Pray” vs “Hit and Run”
People keep championing the stats on Lyoto Machida’s fighting style to justify it’s validity. To do this, they point towards our friend Rami’s FightMetric site and the statistical domination that Machida achieved against Tito Ortiz. This got me thinking … what do the stats look like for other fights where one fighter decides to be ‘elusive’, like Tim Sylvia vs Jeff Monson, for example?
Even better, I wanted to know how the stats represented another ‘loophole style’ in MMA: Lay and pray. My theory is that while lay n pray is considered a bullshit fighting tactic (and rightly so), it probably represents the same kind of statistical domination that “Hit and Run” (Machida’s style) does.
So here’s where I need your help. Can you give me examples of the worst cases of Lay and Pray in the recent history of the UFC? Rami has agreed to do his FightMetric thang for a fight of our choice, and then we’ll get to see how LnP statistically stacks up to Machida’s style. I don’t think it’s going to change anyone’s minds nor do I think it answers some of the ‘bigger picture’ questions regarding the Hit and Run. But it should be a fun little experiment.
There are 50 Older Comments about “Lay and Pray” vs “Hit and Run”
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Nucleius says:
Sherk vs. Franca
Lay and Pray clinic
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Pick a fight from YAMMA.
Any Jesse Taylor fight apparently.
Sherk vs. anybody he decisioned. -
Beau says:
Jake Obrien vs Heath Herring
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pauli says:
off the top of my head, hughes vs lytle.
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Rashad Evans vs Stephan Bonnar . . .
I don’t know I think that fight was just a bunch of takedowns, but pretty uneventful.I guess Lyoto Machida is now the most loved/ hated/ appreciated/ scorned MMA fighter amongst all blogs.
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Stellar53 says:
Koscheck vs. Joslin
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Yoshiharu says:
Marrero vs Kongo
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Mobb Deep says:
O’Brien vs Herring
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KneeToTheFace says:
If someone scores as many points on Fightmetric as Machida did vs. Ortiz, except on the ground, I don’t think it would qualify as a Lay and Pray fight. That makes it Ground and Pound.
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Sherk vs. Franca and O’Brien vs. Herring have to be the two most egregious cases in recent memory.
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Pontus says:
I actually liked Sherk vs Franca.
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Steve says:
Marrero vs Kongo is a good one
I really don’t get what some of you guys consider consider ‘lay & pray’. For me, L&P means that a wrestler scores a takedown and lays in his opponent’s guard throwing hammer fists & short elbows rather than posturing up and dropping bombs or passing the guard. He tries to do just enough to avoid a standup and ride out the round.
By that standard, neither Sherk-Franca nor JOB-Herring qualify as lay pray, since both Sherk and JOB remained active by constantly improving their position. Neither guy was very effective on offense, but they didn’t just lay there and try to ride out rounds.
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Caligula says:
Any Sherk fight – particularly against Franca. He is the lay and pray king.
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catch says:
I second Koscheck/Joslin
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Eric says:
you got a load of Sherk, Koscheck, O’Brien fights as well as C.B. Dollaway and Jesse Taylor to look forward too. Jesse Taylor has been the recent worst offender, albeit not a UFC fighter.
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zeke says:
“If someone scores as many points on Fightmetric as Machida did vs. Ortiz, except on the ground, I don’t think it would qualify as a Lay and Pray fight. That makes it Ground and Pound.”
Just because Fightmetric’s Machida/Ortiz ratio was off the wall doesn’t mean that Machida actually threw that many strikes dumbass.
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Asa says:
Bas vs Randleman.
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cyph says:
Dear Fightlinker:
You suck!
Love, Machida.The difference between LNP and Machida? LNP’er can never finish an opponent. Machida almost finished Tito Ortiz several times, once in the first and another in the third. The fact that Tito Ortiz wasn’t finished is a testament to his abilities (Tito was a former UFC champ after all). The fact that Machida made Ortiz look bad is a testament to his abilities. To make comparisons between Machida and LNP and Kalib Starnes is laughable. But it’s par for the course here at Sherdog University.
There are two types of MMA fans: The ones who can appreciate the nuances of a good technical fight and the ones who wants a brawl-fest. FL belongs in the latter camp. You can’t appreciate a good technical battle if you’re drunk out of your mind.
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Elfenstein says:
fightlinker – you need to get over this subject or get laid – preferably both…
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Fatal Error says:
Elfenstein, be careful what you wish for. You may just come home one day and find the FL crew running a train on your mom. With Chuck Liddell waiting at the end to tag in.
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H.Diddy says:
Jake O’Brian vs. Heath Herring
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ForrestFire says:
Cyph, saying Machida isn’t like LnP’ers because he “almost finished” Tito would pull a whole lot more weight in an argument if he hadn’t also “almost finished” such Light Heavyweight stalwarts as David Heath and Sam Hoger.
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Gza says:
“Lay and Pray†vs “Hit and Runâ€
The difference is nobody likes to watch Lay and Pray. There are plenty of MMA fans who see the beauty in Machida’s style.
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cyph says:
I said LNP can NEVER finish a fighter. Machida do finish fighters, almost or some times.
Reading comprehension, my friend.
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godzillad says:
“Sherk vs Franca”? Are you people serious?
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“Machida do finish fighters, almost or some times.
Reading comprehension, my friend.”
ackk..hhrrck…choking on…irony
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Suqleg says:
Well with LnP the idea is your opponent is unable to strike you because they are on their back and there is litle movement happening. I do not see how this compares to a fight where your opponent is free to strike you but is UNABLE to. Titio is responsible for beating his opponent, there is no responsability on Machida to allow Ortiz that opportunity.
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RoB says:
the fact that a “striker” couldnt finish tito is a testament to how in fact lame that “striker” is……..
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crs says:
Any of the early PRIDE fights featuring a Gracie not named Rickson were LnP “I really want to tell my grandkids one day I went to a draw with a Gracie” fights. But those fights were entertaining as hell because Bas & Stephen get bored and start talking about random shit.
Actually LnP fighters can finish a fight if they play possum and got for submissions out of nowhere. Royce pretty much invented LnP but he finished fights with it.
“There are two types of MMA fans: The ones who can appreciate the nuances of a good technical fight and the ones who wants a brawl-fest. FL belongs in the latter camp. You can’t appreciate a good technical battle if you’re drunk out of your mind.”
*rolls eyes* You people are hopeless.
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Who Cares says:
“There are two types of MMA fans: The ones who can appreciate the nuances of a good technical fight and the ones who wants a brawl-fest. FL belongs in the latter camp. You can’t appreciate a good technical battle if you’re drunk out of your mind.â€
Seriously man take it easy. MMA is not as night and day as you make it out to be. Just cause you don’t like Machida doesn’t mean you only want to see “brawl-fests”.
Lyoto is good but Anderson Silva KOs people when he hits them. Lyoto punches and backs off. Lyoto has 13 wins with 8 decisions and 3 TKOs. To me Anderson Silva is everything Lyoto wishes he was, except Anderson Silva doesn’t jump 5 feet backwards after every attack. The fact that Lyoto doesn’t turn his back when he evades is about the only reason why i don’t hate him but he does back peddle a bit to much for my taste.
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Patrick says:
Kongo’s loss to Marrero was the worst case of L’n'P I can recall. It was very, very, very boring.
No damage done to anyone the whole fight. -
Jerry Curljuice says:
Whoever wrote this article needs to pull their head out of Tito’s ass.
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Russell says:
Do not confuse Lay and Pray with Ground and Pound. Sherk is non stop ground and pound. He never stops moving and punching. Lay and Pray would be Hughes vs Lytle. He put him on his back, and did not do any damage.
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mike o says:
guess what bitch hit and run works in a real fight vs multiple opponents.
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mike o says:
oh yeah, nominating koscheck vs joslin
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PORkSOdA says:
You just post this Machida stuff to stir things up don’t you?
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KneeToTheFace says:
“Just because Fightmetric’s Machida/Ortiz ratio was off the wall doesn’t mean that Machida actually threw that many strikes dumbass.”
Wait, so you’re saying that even though Fightmetric scored the exact amount of strikes, takedowns, knockdowns, and submission attemps – you claim that Machida DIDN’T throw as many strikes as it says? How does that even make sense? And you come off all defensive calling me a dumbass. Grow up and know something about common sense, then work your way back up to commentary on MMA.
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Eugene says:
Lay and Pray = take opponent down, lay on them not taking chances, praying judges score you winning due to holding dominant position 51%+ of fight. LnP is also used by wrestlers who are gassed, see CB Dolloway, or by wrestlers with no stand up not sure what to do against Jitsu guys, see JT Money.
Lay and Pray = gayJoe Rogan thinks fighters should never be stood up, ever. Therefore;
Joe Rogan = gaySeriously tho, the UFC should adopt the PRIDE rules of penalizing purses of fighters who do not fight, ie. Lay and Pray’ers/Kalib Starnes. Starnes would have been owing so much money by the end of that fight we all would have gotten our PPV money back.
Comparing Machida’s style to Lay and Pray is utterly idiotic. What Machida does is not only a thing of beauty, it is genius. It is also very Cassius Clay like. The young Ali aka Clay, was untouchable and unbeatable, the older Ali aka Mr. Rope-a-dope took a beating and became beatable. If you don’t see that, that is your loss.
Anyways this thread/idea is pointless because there is no statistical domination for Lay and Pray other than holding the dominant position most of the fight. The striking in a Lay and Pray fight is usually pretty even with sometimes the guy on the bottom being the busier striker but still losing because they were not in the dominant position and Cecil Peoples was judging.
P.S. how do you throw a jab from the clinch? Did Cecil Peoples make fightmetric?
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Kanos says:
McCully vs Hardonk
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Phil Magroin says:
For sure Koscheck VS Joslin. Sherk works it on the ground. Arlofski vs Tim sylvia (the last time)= hit and run vs hit and run.
