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Wah wah, wrestling is ruining MMA

It wasn’t so long ago that the general opinion from MMA fans was that if you weren’t able to appreciate a solid wrestling gameplan, then you were a clueless moron who was into the sport for the wrong reasons. But now it’s not just some of the fans that are doing it … the fighters are getting involved too. First there’s Dan Hardy, who’s become something of a spokesman for fighters who have been brutally raped by this mysterious fighting style:

Rather than saying ‘oh, these guys can’t wrestle’, I think the problem is there’s beginning to be too much wrestling in UFC Octagon, not too little of it in the gym. There are a lot of people out there calling themselves ‘UFC fighters’ who are nothing of the kind. In the UFC, you should go for finishes.

You should work for 15 minutes to knock your opponent out, submit him, or improve your position to give yourself the best chance of doing either. But there’s guys out there who just want to use wrestling to hold a stalemate for 15 minutes, without ever risking going for ground and pounds or attempting submissions.

This isn’t ‘cheating within the rules’ – it is actually against the rules. ‘Timidity’ is outlawed in the Unified MMA rules and what better describes the act of holding on to an opponent and waiting for the clock to tick down with no attempt or inclination to do any damage?

And then there’s Cole Miller, who also thinks wrestlers are basically exploiting a loophole to win decisions:

I hear all this talk about dominant top position…are you kidding me? These guys take you down because they don’t want to get beat up on their feet and they let you up because they don’t want to get beat up there either and then everyone thinks their so well rounded when all they did was keep from getting beat up in any one spot. They should get a halfway championship for being in great shape because that’s what it is. The conditioning champion of the world. It’s great to be in shape but these guys are surviving and that’s not what martial arts is about. The first thing is self-defense of course but the second thing is taking your opponent out so he can no longer inflict damage upon you. The sport is called mixed martial arts and they aren’t doing one martial art let alone mixing any of them together. The sport is going to get more and more diluted with more guys like this.

Personally, I’m not too concerned. Great wrestlers with zero skills other than takedowns will always be exposed sooner or later. It already takes them two or three times longer to earn a title shot than the dudes showing pure brilliance across the MMA spectrum, and past that you can always derail them with a nice dose of their own medicine by putting them up against another bullshit dump’n’humper.

There is one area I completely agree with these guys though, and that’s when it comes to the judging. We’re still stuck in the fuxxored situation of having idiot boxing judges and other unqualified commission baboons judging our fights. Many do indeed see little past who’s on top. If the guy on the bottom got a fair shake for his submissions and striking, I’d have less complaints about the current situation. But at the moment, wrestling isn’t just a strong style going through a bit of a resurgence right now (not as big as all these sky-is-falling people make it out to be, but a little one), it’s a style that gives fighters an unwarranted advantage on the scorecards because of the garbled criteria for scoring fights and the idiots doing the scoring.

  • godzillad


    * bitches
    * boo hoo
    * uk wrestling lol
    * whining”


  • Sodomize Intolerance

    Sorry, Hardy, but closing your guard for the standup is also ‘Timidity’. Looks like you’ll have to keep it open and let GSP pass if you want to keep this match legal.

  • FiveBoltMain

    Some one get him a Happy Meal.


    I mean, seeing someone get humped for 15 minutes is never exciting, but i acknowledge the skill it takes to do so. The only thing that really upsets me is the fact that takedowns are scored so highly. Honestly, whats it matter if you lay on someone for 15 minutes if you do no damage? OH, and nothing makes me more mad than when someone goes for a takedown with 30 seconds left on the clock. It makes me instantly loose respect for the fighter. But we as fans have somehow been tricked into thinking that, “oh, he got the takedown, he won the round.” Sure thats how the judges see it, but it shouldnt be how we see it. Irritating.


    Saying that guys are being held down for 15 min is a gross generalization and fighters should know better than to make such ignorant remarks. Yeah, some guys are a snorefest, but that’s rarely the case with GSP and guys at the top level. Usually guys are getting their pummeled in the process of being out-wrestled.

    Refs will stand up any lack of activity and boring fighters will always make less money. Besides, being a *complete* mixed-martial artist means being able to deal with a one-dimensional wrestler. If you want to keep the fight more fluid than defend the takedown and force your opponent to fight your fight.

  • Del Fuego

    Dan Hardy is complaining because he had no (as in zero) answer for G.S.P. ‘s wrestling. Three words, take down defense. All fighters need to learn it.

    If memory serves, I think G.S.P. had Dan in serious trouble twice.

  • Tanhauser

    Wrestling should be minimized IMO. Maybe let it breath more after the sport has grown.

    It’s boring. Plain and simple.

    Be a snob and say you appreciate the technical wrestler.. I don’t give a fuck, you’re probably the only one in the bar who does. Everybody else is leaving or not ordering that PPV.

    I say give a wrestler 2 min to work his game. That’s half a round. If he hasn’t almost locked in a sub or started to mount or do G’N’P – stand it up.

    If he’s a good wrestler he can get the take down again.

  • Reverend Clint

    yeah right has the same opinion as me. what chael sonnen did to silva is exciting in its own way but that some guys to is lame. They take a guy down only to never pass guard and never strike for shit. If you pass guard and try to finish or even fucking do something that might lead to a finish, like grab an arm and hit them a couple times, thats great but just sitting in guard or even half guard and waiting is stupid. i see it as nothing different then a striker just pacing around or a BJJ guy butt scooting.

    frankie edgar took bj down but only tried to finish him there once or twice. 90% of his takedowns in the last fight were just to take him down and lay in his guard. granted BJ is a great BJJ fighter but just laying there should not count. I’m not saying Frankie never did anything with his takedowns, his were explosive and sent bj on his ass which im sure hurt for a bit and probably wore him out.

    Matt hughes is a good example of a guy who actually uses his wrestling to finish a guy. he might lay there for a minute but he eventually fucks them up with strikes or a sub, and this is coming from someone who has a severe dislike for Matt Hughes. Fedor does a great job of passing peoples guards and laying into them but for some reason wrestler for the most part are content to just lay in guard and maybe throw a punch until the other fighter is either tired or just wants to use there own skills. in a way thats a great way to win but is not a fight. MMA is part sport and part entertainment. People dont want to watch a lame wrestler after they have laid out $50 for a PPV or more for a seat.

    take downs are great but shouldnt be seen as a deciding factor unless they actually lead to something being accomplished. you wouldnt award guys points for throwing kicks and missing nor would you award points for holding a guy against the cage. unless it comes down to octagon control then maybe that part of the points factor should be re-evaluated. Effort to finish IMO should be the #1 factor in a fight. in a real life fight if a guy wants to live he will look to finish not just hump his opponent for 15. MMA should be seen as life or death in the eyes of the fighters.

  • Del Fuego

    Two problems.

    1. This is a sport not just a fight. If fighters were not allowed to “play it safe” at times, I think they would have a lot more trouble being getting these fights sanctioned.

    2. As long as fighters get paid to win, they will do what they have to, in order to win. This includes using a game plan that plays to their strengths and their opponents weaknesses.

    I guess we could get rid of decisions completely.

    All sports have boring moments. If all we had were knockouts, we wouldn’t appreciate them as much.

  • Blackula Jonez

    How nice of Ryan to take Hardy’s article about Lentz wall and stalling his teammate Andre Winner and make it into some “OMG I’m still butthurt over the GSP loss” anti wrestling tirade.

    Nick Lentz wasn’t even able to take or keep Winner down and literally held him against the cage for the majority of the fight. I am far from a fan of Fitch or Maynard but at least they succeed in taking opponents down and attacking them. Fitch had Alves fending of an rnc in the last round of their fight and Gray stood up in Florians guard and was raining down punches.

    They did not finish but they were definitely came closer than their opponents. Nick Lentz just neutralized Winner, he was outstruck by Winner and had no sub attempts, So fuck Nick Lentz.

    And in regards to everyone shitting on Edgar not finishing Penn. Lets try to be rational about this, BJ Penn has only been finished by the two best welterweight champions the sport has ever seen. And both Hughes and GSP needed 2 tries to pull this feat. If that doesn’t put what Frankie “I cut under 10 pounds to reach the lightweight limit” Edgar in perspective than you are a fucking retard.

    BJ Penn has never been rocked or dropped from a strike and has never been submitted, fought as high as middleweight and took a heavyweight Lyoto Machida to a decision. And other than being a stronger better conditioned wrestler who can bounce his head of the canvas for a prolonged period of time not to many people are going to finish BJ Penn in a fight.

  • DJ ThunderElbows

    I second Blackula on the BJ thing. The entire Interwebs needs to shut its labia about that shit and move on. BJ has skills, but he didn’t use ‘em, Frankie did. Done dada.

    As for wrestling, it is to grappling what footwork is to boxing – and in MMA you need to control it all. A striker who can’t maintain the range he wants is a worthless sack of shit and needs to shut his cakehole and train smarter or go live the fighter X-Treem lifestyle in K1.

    This is like complaining that you can’t reach a guy with your punches and kicks. You’re doing it wrong, dipshit.